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 Post subject: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:51 am 
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I am looking for a best semi-auto shotgun in the world for function, reliability & durability not necessary the most expensive or beatiful. It kind of comes down to the Beretta AL391 or Extrema. Wouldn't you guys agree? I know it's a touchy subject! :wink:




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 Post subject: Re: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:54 am 
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My next shotgun will be a Stoeger 2000 semi. Simple autoloader is what I'm looking for... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:33 am 
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A lot of people would say the Benelli is the most reliable autoloader. However, I just can't take the beating from one. I'd agree that a 391 of the flavor that best suits your needs would be the way to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:09 am 
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The Browning Gold in 12 or 20 gauge.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:15 am 
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There is not one brand/model that can claim this title. The top ones have already been mentioned already. The Benelli's, Beretta's and Browning's are all arguably the best. For a little less money the Franchi's, Weatherby SAS and Winchester SX2 are right there too. Then there is always the Browning Auto-5.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:55 am 
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Under those terms the gun is the Saiga-12. I've tested mine by mistreating it (shoot 500 rd, put away dirty and repeat four or five times over a month. Shoot wet with no extra lube...). I've never had a problem. It's like the timex of shotguns, but ugly as sin.

The big brand guns are the best if you treat them the way a gun should be treated. The Saiga is the best for reliability no matter how you treat it. I either do or have owned most of the guns mentioned. The Saiga is what I bring to the duck boat, pheasant field and trap line. Why? Not to be odd, but because I know it will shoot when I want it too, no matter what!!!

On top of all this you can unload the gun wearing gloves without dropping all your shells in the mud, reload in seconds if you buy an extra clip or two, it shoots so soft it's amazing and it's pretty cheap.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:55 pm 
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391commander wrote:
I am looking for a best semi-auto shotgun in the world for function, reliability & durability not necessary the most expensive or beatiful. It kind of comes down to the Beretta AL391 or Extrema. Wouldn't you guys agree? I know it's a touchy subject! :wink:

Find an A-5 Browning, Belgian or Japanese, doesn't matter.
You invoked the 3 magic words of semi-autodom...function, reliability, and durability. The Auto-5 ain't gorgeous, but it's the King-Dog in the semi dept., and everybody knows it. For hunting, especially in adverse conditions, it's perfect. For the clay games, you can get by with some of the "kindler, gentler" aforementioned models :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:50 am 
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Cynergyman wrote:
You invoked the 3 magic words of semi-autodom...[b]function, reliability, and durability
Don't forget CHEAP $$$ yepper ! Thats the Baikal MP153 !
Art 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:52 pm 
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The Winchester super x model one is the best, as far as I know,
for the parameters you mentioned.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:35 pm 
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Browning Gold is my pick.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:38 am 
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Based solely on the guns that I have owned, The Browning Gold has been the least reliable, the Benelli and Beretta 391 have been the most reliable.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:45 am 
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The best, most funtional, most reliable Auto - only one answer the Browning A5 - these guns are absolutely bomb proof as far as auto's go.

If you want comfort buy a 391 - but these will in no way stand up to years of use / abuse like a good condition A5. If it was good enough for the British Army in Borneo or their bomb disposal units then it has got to be good.

May not be the prettiest girl in the class - or the most comfortable but they certainly last. Look how many are still shooting 75 (or more) years later - just compare an A5 to any "modern" auto - you will find no aluminium or plastic bits to crack or split...........

jonty


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 Post subject: Re: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:53 am 
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Cynergyman wrote:
391commander wrote:
I am looking for a best semi-auto shotgun in the world for function, reliability & durability not necessary the most expensive or beatiful. It kind of comes down to the Beretta AL391 or Extrema. Wouldn't you guys agree? I know it's a touchy subject! :wink:

Find an A-5 Browning, Belgian or Japanese, doesn't matter.
You invoked the 3 magic words of semi-autodom...function, reliability, and durability. The Auto-5 ain't gorgeous, but it's the King-Dog in the semi dept., and everybody knows it. For hunting, especially in adverse conditions, it's perfect. For the clay games, you can get by with some of the "kindler, gentler" aforementioned models :wink:


Listen to this gentleman, excellent advice :)

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 Post subject: Re: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:32 am 
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I hunt quite a bit with a Benelli M1 and have never had any sort of malfunction. The Browning A-5 guns are also justifiably famous for their reliability. Either of these guns should suffice. Personally, I stay away from gas-operated autoloaders. They have complicated mechanisms and there is a lot that can go wrong. The old Remington 11-48 and 48-Mohawk, which are recoil-operated, are also good choices.

I don't get the complaints about recoil in Benellis. I shoot magnum loads for geese and ducks all season long, and never notice recoil. The only time I ever have recoil problems with shotguns is when I'm at the range shooting slugs to sight in a gun before deer season, and in those instances recoil is noticeable to me in any shotgun.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:03 am 
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Any one of the B Guns that fit you properly !

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 Post subject: Re: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 3:48 pm 
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Why did no one mention the 1100? :?

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 Post subject: Re: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:52 pm 
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Rev,
Love my 1100's and have testified to such many times on this forum, but they are not built/fitted like A-5s... and no other semiauto is yet in it's league except maybe the Winchester Super X1. It'll take about another 50 years or so for another design to shake itself out, if it's not changed, and if it stays alive. We'll have to wait and see :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:08 pm 
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Not all gas guns are created equally. Some are much less complicated and have fewer parts than others. The Franchi 612 for example takes only nine moving parts to cycle minus the trigger group/carrier and magazine parts. The Inertia designed Benelli's takes ten moving parts minus the trigger group and magazine parts. It's also an easy design to clean. It's easier and faster than a Benelli if you include the action/recoil and magazine, especially if it's the Monte/Legacy models.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:35 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:56 pm
Posts: 558
I guess the SX-1 is still one of the best kept secrets
in shotgunning. People generally just don't know how
good this gun is. I was on a shotgun forum back in
Feb, 2000 when I learned of the SX-1. I made a copy
of the dialog and later made a copy of a subsequent
dialog covering the SX-1. It is such a good coverage
of the SX-1 I decided to post both here. The first one
started out about what is the best auto shotgun. It went
like this. I have left out some of the conversation
which was insignificant.

=============================
aworsham wrote:
I am just getting into shooting clays. I am an avid
defensive shooter with handgun and shotguns. My pump
(Mossberg 500) has been a real workhorse, but I have
found it very limiting for clays. I have shot various
O/U's and autoloaders which are a great improvement
over my Mossberg and I am leaning towards autoloaders.
I have only shot the Beretta's and Benelli's but haven't
seen much difference (for me) in the recoil. I have used
the Benelli's quite a bit defensivly and just love them
and their actions are flawless. What I want to know is
opinions on which type of autoloader would be most
dependable and practical. I would like some input on
Franchi autoloaders. My understanding is that they are
owned by Benelli and using their same rotating bolt and
inertia system. I handled one at a local gun shop and
it definatly has the same innards as the Benelli.
=====================================
several people replied and recommended various autos
like Browning Gold or Beretta 390/391, Benneli .Rem.1100 etc

=====================================
Then rjbsuperx1 wrote:

The Winchester Super X Model 1.......quite simply, the best
autoloader on the market today...

Bob Baumgart

=====================================
Skeet38 wrote:

I think Bob B. is right. I didn't believe that until I bought one
about a month ago, but now I am a fan of the SX-1. Fred Amerson
=====================================
fssberson wrote:

Bob B. please explain your statement that the Winchester
Super X Model 1 is the best autoloader. What does it do better
than the others? Features? Recoil? Trapshooting championships?
Skeet Shooting championships? Sporting Clays? That is quite a
statement considering the competition.

Fred
=====================================
mmckinley wrote:

Fred -

Since Bob Baumgart hasn't had a chance to reply in his
eloquent manner, I'll sub for him. The Winchester SuperX Model 1
is all steel, all machined parts, and with reasonable care, it
is extremely reliable. It is fairly heavy - 8 to 8 1/2lbs but
beautifully balanced, and recoil is as low as any gas-operated
auto on the market. You don't see too many around the clay
competition circuit because less than 88,000 were made, the
last one in 1981. Winchester could not continue to build them
at competitive prices - so they closed production. There are
many of these guns still around, but most SX-1 shooters have
more than one! One is just not enough!! I've had experience
with nearly all the currently-produced gas guns....none can
hold a candle to the Winchester Super X, Model 1!!!!

Mac
=====================================

rjbsuperx1 wrote:

Fred,
It's more than a statement. It's a real fact! The SX is the
only machined steel autoloader on the market. Rugged, durable,
easily maintained, and reliable. It weighs more than any other
autoloader(with the Remington coming in close), and the weight
is distributed better than other alloy auto's on the market
right now. You'll have to trust my judgement as a toolmaker.

Take out the trigger group....look at it. Compare it to any
other autoloader. No other auto has a machined steel component
trigger like the SX-1. Who has a steel receiver at all besides
the SX-1 and Remington?

Built to last several lifetimes....and beyond.

There just wasn't many of them built......Winchester couldn't
afford to produce them anymore. Just lately, shooters are looking
at this gun and realizing just how well built they are.

Ya....it's a big statement, but it's a true one.

If you want an O/U, Krieghoff and Kolar are your choices for top quality.

If you want an autoloader, the SX-1 is the "Krieghoff" of them all!

Bob Baumgart
=====================================
fssberson wrote:

Now this just doesn't make a lot of sense. They were so good that
they couldn't sell enough of them so they stopped making them??
Or they couldn't sell enough of them at their price point so instead
of raising the price they stopped making them? But they didn't make
many of them...less than 100,000. And they are so good that the
people who own them own several. Why would the people who own them
sell them??? And then how could someone buy one??

My real point is why recommend something that hasn't been made in
20 years and is not available for sale or parts?? Especially to
someone who is brand new to shotguns and looking to purchase a
new gun??

Fred

=====================================
Fred....

You need to research your thoughts before you air them as
fact. The guns were stopped because they could not be
continued to be produced with their quality at the prices
they were for sale for. Winchester's estimate is this
gun....produced today, would run somewhere from $1700-$2000
due to the intense machining that was required.

Parts? Well, they are readily available, and much more so
than Beretta parts....which are currently produced! Obviously
you have not looked at an SX-1, but feel moved to discuss
issues about them that you are not knowledgeable about.

If you want to see a few good SX's in action next week, come
on down to the Caribbean Cup and sign on up! You'll see more
of them there than you have anywhere else....

Bob

=====================================

singolf wrote:

Not to mediate this discussion, but I think Fred's point
is why do we suggest something that is very difficult for
someone to obtain...Remingtons, Beretta's, Benelli's even
new SX2's are readily available.

Jim Chapman
Michigan
=====================================
Jim,
The SX is more difficult to obtain, but it is the best.
Nothing else is close to it's construction and durability.
The current autoloaders are fine and will do the job you want
them to. I don't know how long they will last....as only time
will tell. SX's recoil less than the others, but this is due
to it's weight rather than design.

You need to go with what's more comfortable for you to own,
and what you feel the best with. Any of the above mentioned
autos will fill the bill.....but.....they are not the best.
This isn't because the other manufacturers couldn't produce
a gun like this.....or even better. It's the fact that.....if
they did, no one would pay the money to buy one. That's what
Winchester found out the hard way.....


Shoot straight, and shoot often!

Bob
=====================================
bigalt wrote:

Fred, If you wan't acomplishments with the super X mine
may not be the greatest but I made the 2000 NSSA Rookie
All American First Team with the help of my super-x model 1.
And I will have to say it is the best auto loader ever made.
I did spent a bit of money on mine re-stocking the gun and
had a bit of barrel work done, but that is just because I
like to tinker with things. When I first started shooting
my super X many All-Americans and olympic champions came
up to me and said " I see you are shooting the best auto
ever made " I don't think they would make that statement
unless they belived it. As far as avalibility goes I see
them all the time for less than the new autos on the market
and in many cases their parts are more avalible than the
new guns. There are many good autos out there but I think
the super x model 1 is still number 1. Break'em All

=====================================
all this good info on the SX-1... Is there any comparison
from the new SX-2 to the highly mentioned SX-1?

Rob
=====================================
Rob,

The Super X 2 has only two points of sameness with the
SX-1. It's a shotgun and it has Winchester stamped on
the barrel. It is a totally different design, and as a
matter of fact is really a Browning Gold auto without
the speed loading and magazine cutoff features. The
same company now owns both the Browning company and
the Winchester name as it pertains to firearms, so
they do a bit of swapping of engineering and manufacturing.
The Super x 2 isn't a bad gun at all, in fact it's rather
good. However, as Bob Baumgart has pointed out, nothing
else is really close to the SX1.


Ford
=====================================
fssberson wrote:

Bob and the rest of the SX1 crowd: I just repeated
what you guys had said. I have never seen an SX1,
know nothing about them, but you said they stopped
making them in 1981..so how much would they have
cost in 1981 dollars...Instead I get year 2000 dollars.
You guys are jumping around in your argument and then
attributing words to me. I simply asked you to defend
your statement about the greatest auto ever made. I
didn't argue about its mechanics. And then I find out
how great shooters everyone is with the gun [good shooters
can win with most guns that fit them] and challenged to
shoot offs, etc. Just a little defensive...you think.

I still question if the gun was so great why did they
stop making it 20 years ago and not make another like
it. Why did it have such a short production run of only
88,000? Did it only appeal to really, really good shooters?
How many Remington 1100's were made during this time
period? Now I am not comparing the two guns in quality
only the number of sales. How come Winchester won't make
the Model 12 [arguably the best pump ever made] in 12 gauge?
You know a lot of people consider the Studebaker to be a
great car...but it didn't sell either at any price point.

And thank you Jim Chapman for mediating because that was
my exact point. Why recommend a gun to a new shooter that
hasn't been made in 20 years.
=====================================
liuom wrote:

Just because something isn't made anymore doesn't mean
it isn't good, or great. Sometimes companies make a
loss-leader, something they know they will lose money on,
but is a great image booster for them as a company.
Sometimes a product is ahead of its time, in the 70s-80's,
pre-sporting clays, demand for heavy (compared to field
guns) guns may have been less than it is now, and new
shooters were less able to tap into vast databases like
this forum to get info, like benefits of heavy guns (kick less).

Winshester doesn't make a Model 21 anymore either, and
they sell for over $4000 unrestored. Can Winchester make a
new Model 21 for less than $4000? If it had the production
line all ready to go, but if they had to create all the machinery
again to do it, it would cost $10,000, because the expensive
SxS market is small, and it would take them forever to recoup
costs. So they sold the rights to the gun to a smaller company
that doesn't have stockholders to answer to, and they make a
new Model 21 for $10,000.

Same for AH Fox, NID Ithaca SxS, etc...

In 20 years, maybe the SX-1 will appreciate to these guns'
value too.

They don't seem that hard to get, I see at least 5 Super X-1s
in this websites' Classified section alone, ranging from
$450 to $1300. What can you get for $450..a mossberg 9200?,
a beat to hell beretta 303? Why NOT get a really unique gun,
that happens to be on par with the best available autoloaders today?

The other SX-1 fans are trying to say that he would get a $1700
value in a $600 SX-1 in year 2000 dollars.

I think we can all agree
most autos today are build to a price point, less than $1000.
Most of the factory autos over $1000 are only upgraded wood
and engraving, not a different gun.
(The SX-1 seems to be a different gun) again to keep tooling
costs at a minimum. The market for $1500 autos is miniscule,
probably from the "Autos are a cheap man's gun" mentality.

I love my 390, I own a 9200 Mossberg, and I shoot the 687 the
most, but the next shotgun on my list to get is a Super X-1,
its just so damn neat. Just my opinion, which is what the
original poster asked for.

-Oliver
=====================================
You guys have convinced me on this SX1 gun. I really have
never used or observed one although I've been at the shotgun
schene for about 45 years. Maybe if I were starting over
today I would go for the SX1, I must admit you guys have
made a great case.

Joe Cool
=====================================
To give you a brief history.....
The SX started in design in 1969 and went until 1974.
Production started in 1974, and by the end of 1975,
the serial range was up to 35,000. At the time, the
Model 12 was the dominent trap gun, and Olin decided
to grab the autoloader market by manufacturing a gun
with nothing but the best materials and workmanship.....
the SX-1. At the time....the most superior autoloader
in the world, and I dare to say, it still is. This was
an 8.5 million dollar project..(in 1974 dollars!)

Remington dominated the autoloader market then....
with all it's 1100's in all the gauges. For Winchester
to break into the market, they had to sell these expensive
guns at a loss......every one! They lost approx. $300 on
every gun sold! The thought was that after a few guns were
on the fields, the quality of the gun alone would sell
itself.......the average guy realizing the quality and
workmanship. Even at the $300 loss per gun, the SX-1 was
about $100 more than a Remington 1100.

John Olin was a 20 gauge fanatic, and in 1976, produced a
prototype of the SX-1 in 20 gauge which I had the priviledge
to shoot in June of that year. Because sales were poor, this
gun never got produced, and neither did the 3" version,
although it was cataloged in 1974.....2 years earlier.

Make no mistake about it......the SX-1 is one of the biggest
"sleepers" of Winchester's history....... solid as a rock!

I also have a rare factory film on the SX-1.....it's design,
manufacture, and testing. When you view this film, you then
realize what went into it's production. It shows all the
latest NC equipment used to manufacture this gun.


I beleive you won't be able to wear this gun out.....ever.
I currently shoot a presentation grade gun(non-factory) that
I bought new in 1978. I have a log on this gun, and at my
present rate of shooting, I'll go over 250,000 rounds though
it by the end of this year. The action is so slick, it feels
like it is riding on ball bearings! In that time, I broke a
bolt link in Sept. of 1999, and a firing pin 2 weeks
ago........that's it! Pretty good service I'd say.....

I hope all of you get the opportunity to shoot one of these
fine guns. You'll never look back to another.....

Bob Baumgart

=====================================
Bob,

When you replaced the link and firing pin, who did you
get them from?

Joe Cool
=====================================
fssberson wrote:

Bob: Ok you have convinced me. I will have to ask
around and find one to shoot, although I have never
seen one nor seen one on a rack for sale at a shoot.
Do they make a trap version of the SX1?? Fred

=====================================
Fred,
Yes....they make a MC stock and regular stock
trap grade gun.

Joe,
I have parts.... a lot of parts. Through the
years, I've accumulated many parts. When these
guns were much cheaper, I bought old guns and parts them out.

Nu-line guns has parts too, but you'll have to
pay their price, and it isn't too cheap. The good thing about
it is the parts are available, and you really won't need too
many....


Bob Baumgart
=====================================


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 Post subject: Re: Best Semi-Auto Shotgun?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:52 pm 
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Posts: 265
Location: South-East Kansas
Rev, I too am surprized that no one picked the 1100. It shure seems that every "what auto should I buy" post has a flood people recommending the 1100. Where are they now?




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