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 Post subject: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:06 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:21 pm
Posts: 99
Location: NJ
Hi Guys

I posted last week in regards to a finished pointer and your advice was great, so thanks again. I have also come across a finished English Setter and I wanted to get your feedback on the pro's and con's of one dog against the other.

I am mainly using for Pheasant/Chukkar and some wild birds. Both are finished and 3 years old.

How is the coat to take care of an English Setter, I have attached a url for you to view a picture of the Setter for your review. Is it really a hard coat to take care of? How is it in the snow, rain etc. I hunt in the Northeast.

Thanks

John

http://tinyurl.com/8fcmk
[/img]


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 Post subject: Re: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:21 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:43 am
Posts: 819
I thought setters were pointers .... Isn't setter a breed while pointer is a hunting type. Seems to me that you comparing apples and oranges ....


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 Post subject: Re: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:25 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:55 am
Posts: 1803
Location: North Dakota
I have an English Setter. The coat, if left untrimmed, can be time consuming to keep clean and free of burs. Setters have a silky coat that really collects burs, etc.

I opt for clipping the coat at the beginning of the season in North Dakota. By the time cold weather rolls in the coat has grown out enough to keep the dog warm and the burs are either covered by snow or have grown brittle enough that they are relatively easy to remove.

I love my setter...and would not hestitat to get another from the right lines. Big, beautiful, affectionate dogs! But the coat does take more care than the coats of some other breeds.

good luck whatever dog you choose! Hunting with your own dog is a real treat.

hunter20ga

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 Post subject: Re: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:34 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:21 pm
Posts: 99
Location: NJ
I am totally confused now. I thought an English Pointer and an English Setter are two different breeds with different tempermates and lineage.

This is from talking to both breeders and trainers.

John


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 Post subject: Re: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:34 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:52 am
Posts: 4627
The amount of care needed for a setter's coat can vary depending on the type of burrs, stickers, etc. and the the length, how fine/coarse, the condition, etc. of coat on the dog. I have had a few setters and have had an easy time brushing the burrs out of the coat of some and the devil of a time on others. Keeping the coat brushed and healthy goes a long way toward ease of maintanance but there are always some coats that are a real pain to keep clean just as there are some that are Teflon. The vast majority fall someplace in between and coat length may or may not be a factor. I am not a big fan of shorthaired dogs so I have resigned myself to extra care when necessary. This is not all bad as the brushing allows me to do a more thorough exam of the dog after a day of hunting. It is surprising what one will find. The same goes for water shedding ability, one of my dogs takes an hour to dry out, the other can do it in about 15 minutes, less if it can run around. Snow doesn't bother them too much except in certain conditions it can ball up around their toes. Boots or Vasaline on the feet can alleviate this somewhat.
Temperament of setters can range greatly, some lines are bred to be close range dogs while others can reach the horizon. One needs to know their lines to pick a dog that is likely to match their hunting style. Of course a slightly intelligent dog that is well trained with a bit of experience will adapt its range to the conditions on its own, my hunt test dogs will roam out as much as a quarter mile in real light open terrain like a cut wheat field but search within 100 yards while chasing ruffed grouse and woodcock.
I have one Pointer which I placed out to someone who trials it so I don't live with it. It can be a bigger running dog on the whole than the setters but again, there are different lines out there. The big running horseback field trial lines are the most well known and these may not be to everyone's liking. I really like the way my dog handles birds on the prairies but he is a bit heavy handed in the grouse woods. Others that I know have great success with their dogs for ruffs but mine is just not bred for this work. I think a setter is prettier on point but both are classic bird dogs, personal opinions be dam*ed..


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 Post subject: Re: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:40 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:43 am
Posts: 819
I see... you are trying to compare English Pointer to English Setter ... When you say simply Pointer I think off number of pointing breeds and therefore got confused by your posting.

Anyway, I know very little of either breed so other will be more help here....


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 Post subject: Re: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:52 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:21 pm
Posts: 99
Location: NJ
Sorry if I confused anyone. I wanted to get the pro's and con's for getting an English Setter vs an English Pointer. One agnostic trainer told me the coat and tail on an English Setter can be tough to deal with and the feet can bleed in the snow. And also the tail can bleed, so I wanted to get some folks thoughts on one vs the other.

John


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 Post subject: Re: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:08 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:43 am
Posts: 819
Quote:
And also the tail can bleed
I have heard of dogs with long tails sometimes breaking them while hunting thru the woods. When the dog is going "birdie", it wags the tail rapidly and if there is a tree in the way, it may break it.

Somehow I was under impression that E.S. and E.P. are mostly open prarie type dogs .... I see what my dog does with his docked tail in the woods and would be concerned if he had a long tail.


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 Post subject: Re: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:09 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:08 pm
Posts: 446
Location: Washington
I have owned two Irish Setters and have one currently. I have hunted them in all types of conditions. The only problems, are burrs tangling in their hair and ranging. I have never experienced bleeding problems from their feet or tails. I have run mine through stage bush and lava rock but they could be more cold weather tolerant. I had a friend with a pointer who changed breeds because the dog got cold too easily.
Living in the Northeast, I would think that you should look at the English over the Pointer. Of course, the hunting ability and temperament of the dog have more to do with the breeding. At least that is what I have been told by breeders.
When it comes down to it, you need to decide which type of dog best suit your own type of hunting.
Good luck


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 Post subject: Re: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:55 am
Posts: 1803
Location: North Dakota
Not to hijack the thread...but "Pointer" refers specifically to what some incorrectly call the English Pointer, but which is correctly called a Pointer. "Pointing dogs" however, is a phrase used to identify any of a number of breeds that point game.

English Setter is a correct name as well.

The following takes you to the AKC site which lists the Pointer as a breed. No listing, however, for an "English Pointer."

http://www.akc.org/breeds/breeds_h.cfm

hunter20ga

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 Post subject: Re: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:23 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:21 am
Posts: 12
I have pointers but a friend of mine has setters. He wipes his setters down with showsheen for horses. Keeps the burrs out. If they do pick any up they come out easily. Hope this helps someone.


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 Post subject: Re: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:58 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:38 am
Posts: 775
I like both. I have a setter now but my next choice would have been an EP (for clarity sake, hunter20ga). Both will hunt well. You just have to be abit more careful in your research with the EP when it comes to range. Personality wise, EP tend to be not as rumbuncious. Think royalty. My setter on the other hand will jump on people, very stubborn, and generally won't listen. A little terror.

In your previous post, the trainer you mentioned. I've asked around and had some glowing recommendations from other professional trainers.


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 Post subject: Re: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:12 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:52 am
Posts: 4627
hunter20ga beat me to it, the old breed name "English Pointer" was changed quite a while ago to simply "Pointer". The way to tell the difference if one is talking about the Pointer or pointers is in the use of a capital "P" when discussing the breed and a lower case "p" when talking in the generic. Of course, if one begins a sentance with the word "Pointer" one is left to winnow out the meaning by reading the sentance.
As for bleeding tails, that depends on the dog, not breed. Of my two current English Setters, one chronicaly injures his tail causing it to bleed, the other never has. The vast majority of them that I have owned have not been this enthusiastic in the woods but it does happen. I have not seen this happen with my Pointer but did have it happen with my old Pudelpointer, one of a buddy's Viszlas, and a few labs.
As for suitable running areas, the big field trials have had a big influence on Pointers as a whole, and many have morphed into a bigger running dog when conditions allow. My Pointer is a big runner in open areas like prairies and tundra (up to a quarter mile) but works in close (out to 100 yards or thereabouts) when hitting the grouse and woodcock woods with out hacking by me. Same goes for my setters which are also from shooting dog lines. This is a sign of an intelligent and co-operative dog; one that works for the gun and not itself. There are setter lines that are true to their roots, a close working dog that is similar to the lesser known versatiles.


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 Post subject: Re: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:10 pm
Posts: 39
Do you know any bit of the pedigree on either of the two dogs?

I have a 2 year old setter that just loves to be by you and would do almost anything for you to pet her and she is pretty calm now in the house. She works damn close, has a hell of a nose, tail is nice and high, etc all that you would want for a hunting dog.

Then my dad has a 5 year old Elhew Pointer (when I say Elhew im talking Elhew) was bred to Front'N'Center and had 2 pups and one went to Sean Derrig (spelling? sorry I forgot) who is pushing him in the trials. Yet she works pretty close in depending on what the cover is. She is calm and relaxed. She loved attention she would lay in your lap before she had surgery. But once she gets bred I am taking pup or two for sure. She is of royal blood with Damascus, Mcgoo, Strike, Kiwi, etc thank god no Snakefoot.

If theres Elhew in the Pointer and im talking a lot with no Snakefoot and you want a bit closer ranging dog I would look at the pedigree. I would really look at the Pointer if there isn't a lot of Elhew in it I would look at the Setters pedigree if you notice names like Grouse Ridge, Tekoa Mountain (big running dogs but if back far enough it is good), Blue Smoke/Streak(great dog)/Chief/Warrior, etc type dogs I would go with the Setter.

If niether have pedigrees that you see names you know if one is a grouse trial dog and the other isn't go with the grouse trial dog I think there is just something about them cause they have great noses.

Just my thoughts though...


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 Post subject: Re: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:35 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:51 pm
Posts: 119
Location: Berea, Kentucky
Whew, man you guys make a job outa this. One is just as good as the other, because it is what appeals to you. It is your dog, your the one who is gonna spend the money to train, or already spent the money on a trained, or broke dog. How confident are you in handleing a dog, some guys get tore up if they lose site of the dog, for 5 minutes or so? This is what you need to look at before the purchase, you get away from the owner, and you go work the dog. See if the dog likes you or how it responds to you, whatever breed. And of course also watch the bird work. look at the eyes, see what they say to you. Come on over and I will show a setter that I have, got as a pup, we'll go run in th etimber, and we'll go run in the field, we'll go to some mowed corn fields, and run some ditches, the dog was brought up to hunt with me, he'll stretch out, and he'll stay tight, just depends on the cover, the nice thing is I'll show without the collar, and you can handle the whole time, or your wife, doesn't matter, boils down to how they are brought up, and how the foundation is and was presented. Wecan go shoot some birds and let it retrieve for you or your wife, is not a FORCED FETCH dog, just encouraged properly. I feel you get out of any dog what you put into it. In dog training, patience is a virtue, and you will get more done with attrition, than pressure. Thanks Jonesy


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 Post subject: Re: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:41 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:21 pm
Posts: 99
Location: NJ
I am going up to VT on Dec 26th to look at the English Setter(Maggie). I will let you all know if I buy.

Thanks

John


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 Post subject: Re: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:03 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:55 am
Posts: 1803
Location: North Dakota
Good luck, John! You've gotten lots of good advice (and plenty of general opinion, too!) That's what's great about this forum. The proof, however, is in the pudding...er...pointer :lol: Remember, since none of us has to pay for the dog or live with it, we're very free with our opinions. :D Both dogs sound good...let us know how it all turns out!

hunter20ga

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 Post subject: Re: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:09 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:38 am
Posts: 775
I've always thought buying a finished dog was cheating. You don't go through the puppy phase where they chew chew chew; housebreaking - stinking up the carpets; and all that worrying if this dog has 'it' or not. Not to mention if you're doing things right and not ruining the dog for life. So for an alternate opinion: GET A PUPPY! Especially a hyper one that will drive the Ms. and you crazy.


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 Post subject: Re: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:30 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:21 pm
Posts: 99
Location: NJ
Mite

Thanks for the advice. I would wind up in divorce court if I brought home a puppy.
I will let everyone know next week how I did, I am counting the days.
John


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 Post subject: Re: Pointer Vs Setter
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:31 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:21 pm
Posts: 99
Location: NJ
Mite

Thanks for the advice. I would wind up in divorce court if I brought home a puppy.
I will let everyone know next week how I did, I am counting the days.
John


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