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 Post subject: Centaure made in Belguim.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:51 pm 
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OK guys,can you help with this one as to quality and approximate value? Im seriously thinking about buying it.Don't know anything about these but made in Belgium sounds good.Image

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Wonder how old it is? Think I can buy it for 300,is that fair?



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 Post subject: Re: Centaure made in Belguim.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:02 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:13 pm
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Any comments at all?

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 Post subject: Re: Centaure made in Belguim.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:32 pm 
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It has Belgian Proof Marks. The PV means it was Proofed with modern Nitro Powders, not Blackpowder.

'Centaure' isn't ringing a bell.

I think I can see 'Leader' on the top rib. H. Pieper (or the same company with a later name) made a SxS called 'The Leader'. Pieper was probably the largest Belgium gun maker. They used modern machining methods since the late 1800's.

Really can't see much else in the photos; too much glare. If you can post all the info you can read on the gun it would help.

If you match the Proof Marks with those at: http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html you may be able to decipher a manufacturing date range. For example, if there is a 'C' shape with something like '12-70' in it, it would be a 12 Ga with 2 3/4 chambers (= 70 MM) made after 1924.

Can't really tell value w/o more info and clearer pictures of the guns condition. Many people regard Belgium guns as Bottom Of The Barrel; I don't agree for most of their guns, but it can give you some bargaining power. I'd say $300 is reasonable.

You should get it checked out by someone knowledgable in older SxSs before you fire it.


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 Post subject: Re: Centaure made in Belguim.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:54 am 
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Looks like it is marked to have 2 3/4" chambers.
The original Nitro Proof may no longer be valid if for example the barrels have been honed out for any reason (bores enlarged) and as Bob S says you need to have it checked out by someone with the experience and correct measuring gear to determine this.
In general Belgian guns of this era are no worse/better than anything else and probably better made than some machine made guns. Where I live a gun of this type in good working condition would sell for the equivelant of $120 but I do understand that prices in the USA are higher.


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 Post subject: Re: Centaure made in Belguim.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:32 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:13 pm
Posts: 134
Thank you both,I think Ill pass on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Centaure made in Belguim.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:30 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:37 pm
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Yes, I believe this gun was made by Pieper, or as mentioned, whoever took over at a later date. The gun is probably fine as far as quality goes and probably a lot better than a lot of $1000.00 priced SxS's today. Of course it depends on condition. Does the action still lock up tight and how are the bores? This gun is for sale in Canada. A lot of older SxS's don't go for near what they do in the US. The seller has had no takers yet which I believe he would have had at the asking price if anyone was interested in it. I looked at this gun and I think if I was buying it I would offer $250.00 or at the most his asking price if shipping was included. It probably would be a fun old gun to hunt with and you don't find much today for $250.00-$300.00.


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 Post subject: Re: Centaure made in Belguim.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:33 pm 
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After thinking about it, if you want a fairly good quality SxS , I would be looking at that " as new" Brno ZP47 on the same Canadian site at $395.00. Can't realy go wrong at that price for a true sidelock with chopper lump barrels and hidden third fastner plus all parts were hand fitted. I think a far better value for the money than the older Belgian gun. I have 3 of the Brno's and they are greatly under valued in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Centaure made in Belguim.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:44 pm 
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Couriosity won out , couldn't help myself.

'Centaure' (w/ the 'e') can be found here: http://www.scribd.com/Tedfs3/d/77529799-FBI-Gun-Codes Apparently an FBI/NCIC list of gun identities (Naval Criminal Investigation C?, for those who don't watch TV).

It lists: Mfg Name = Centaure, Country = BG (I assume Belgium, didn't look it up), Mfg Code = CEE

If you scroll down it shows: 'Mfg Code CEE = Centaure'. Apparently a gun manufacturer separate from Pieper who used their Co Name on their guns. They might of had a Model named 'Leader' for the English speaking market.

Lots of info on all sorts of Mfgs. Just in case you wanted to know: Zulaica & Co. (Zulaica y Cia) made the 'Royal Dog'.

Not to be outdone, the DOJ has a similar list at:http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cibmanuals/files/Code/HTML/gunmakecodes.htm

Also listed here, w/o the 'e': http://proofhouse.com/cm/codes_markings.htm. "CENTAUR, Tradename on shotguns imported from Belgium by Continental Arms."

It also has lots of Info on other things like modern Brand Name Manufactures ('Trade Names' for those who don't like guns with some other retailers name on them.)

Doublesolver: please don't get me interested in another Mfg, I have enough old doubles now!


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 Post subject: Re: Centaure made in Belguim.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:44 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:47 pm
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The gun was proofed in 1929. At the time of proof the barrels weighed
1.454 kgs or 3.2 lbs. The gun was nitro proofed.

Trademarks in Belgium were registered. They belonged to the person who registered them until the registration period came to an end. At that time anyone could register the same trademark. Over the years 3 companies owned the Centaur trademark; Pieper, Emile Hanquet and Fabriques D'Armes Unies Liege (FAUL). FAUL was a later incarnation of Hanquet & Co.

In actual fact, the Belgian trademark laws were very "wide". Meaning a name, symbol, pattern could be registered. This was in part because of the lace trade, which was a major exporter.

At the time this gun was produced, the Centaur trademark belonged to Pieper.

Given the condition, I would not pay more than $500.

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Last edited by PeterMi on Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Centaure made in Belguim.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:59 am 
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Bob S wrote:
Doublesolver: please don't get me interested in another Mfg, I have enough old doubles now!


I have too many as well (not in my opinion though) but Bob, you gotta try the ZP47 or 49 Brno. Great guns. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Centaure made in Belguim.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:18 pm 
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Roblack
I just acquired the same model this past week and am trying to figure out date of manufacture. How did you get the barrel off? I don't want to screw this thing up.


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 Post subject: Re: Centaure made in Belguim.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:26 am 
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jwrussell75 wrote:
Roblack
I just acquired the same model this past week and am trying to figure out date of manufacture. How did you get the barrel off? I don't want to screw this thing up.


Well, you really should have started a new thread!!

Not too many people are going to wade through this three year old item to see that you are a new question.

Anyway, "most" breakopen shotguns operate the same; get the forearm off and the barrels come off.

Videos are available by searching for: youtube disassembly side by side shotguns.

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 Post subject: Re: Centaure made in Belguim.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:20 am 
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good idea. Thank you.




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