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They work. Period.

But only if you spend the money to do it right.

I mounted the Aimpoint T1 http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=sho...product_id=843 I purchased in the ADM Low mount http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=2...NT_MICRO_MOUNT, and slapped it on the rail. I put the collapsible stock on and set it to the middle length setting.

Wow. Wherever you point the shotgun, a red-dot is hovering in your FOV. Instant. Paint the target, bang. Period. There is NO WAY ghost-rings would be faster. The only thing faster than this is just "point shooting".

Now if you have the OEM PG stock, you can't do this. The red-dot will be above your normal plane of sight, which means you must then "find" the dot by moving your head around like some sort of turtle reaching for a piece greens held by a first-grader with palsy. It just won't work. Irons are better for you if you refuse to buy the collapsible stock. If you have one, however, the T1 and ADM Low mount are tops.

*Other mounts for the T1 include:

B&T LRP (sold as a "retrofit kit" by Aimpoint): Nice, but even Aimpoint tech-support doesn't like it.

LaRue: Probably the best T1 mount out there, but the recoil lug gets chewed up by Benelli's axially relieved rail.

KAC: Very similar to the ADM, but over $200.

ADM: Very similar to the GG&G type mounts, VERY solid. Perfect height in the "low" version.

You dont have to turn on ghost ring sights and the batteries never die. I have an EoTech sitting on the shelf while I try to find a loving home for it, but that home will never be my HD shotgun.

the micro aimpoints have a battery life of something like 5-6 years on the mid setting. A lot of people just leave them on and replace the $3 battery every couple of years. Then there is no need to remember to turn them on.

M4- can you cowittness the irons, or do you need to remove the optic to use the irons? How is the ADM for return to zero?
Anyways, nice setup. I've described this exact setup before as my dream shotgun optic.

I stand corrected

THe T1 is worlds ahead of the Eotech. Eotech's drain batteries sitting on shelves, T1's go 5 years on setting #8, which isn't the brightest, but its not dim indoors either. Setting 9 is about right most of the time, and setting 10 is BRIGHT, and will go for 10 months. (9 is about 2x as bright as 8, and 10 is about 2x as bright as 9). The battery is a common CR2032 watch battery. Available anywhere.

I have not tested the ADM setup yet, planning on it next week. It will not co-witness. Currently there is NO OPTIC I am aware of that will co-witness with the irons on the M4S90.


From what I have heard from other ADM users, return to zero should be great, and considering it's on a shotgun, I bet it will be fine. THis is not a 1MOA weapon.

Don't ya just love "Period!"? Being the ultimate authority always bites me in the ass.

Well, mathematically, if you can show me where lining up 2 objects (dot and target) would be slower than lining up 3 (rifle/ghost sights), or depending on consistant cheek-weld (as with a bead-sight) for accuracy, I will be forced to back-pedal.

having sent lots of rounds out of "dot" pistols and having a dot on my M500 I can say this,..
for handguns if it is fit to the shooter the dot is "just there" no searching like a turtle and it is faster in the handgun world see IPSC shooters but can lead to a game of "chasing the dot" see bullseye shooting on a windy day or when your arm tires..

The 2 things to get my head wrapped around back when I started were..

1. the dot doesn't have to be centered in the scope unlike corsshairs and paralax doesn't exist/apply to dot sights.
2. focus on your target and let the dot overlay like a HUD in a fighter jet
Just locate and confirm target and move to firing position the dot overlays and fire

I am a dinosaur and remember when they first started using dots on bullseye pistols and any sight failure (dead batteries) wasn't an allowed alibi and IPSC was still all iron sights now both my Browning Medalist .22 and my LaRocca .38 Super wear dots yet my 10mm Open gun still has Bo-Mars

My take on it is ..whatever it takes to put the rounds where they need to be but be prepared to be laughed at when you uncase in the duck blind with a dot-shotgun until you limit out before your buddies do so mount one up and go shoot a round of trap or skeet or sporting clays and see how easy it becomes once you remember to lead the bird or just snap shoot some cans at the range..

Practice Practice Practice then rest up, learn from your training, and Practice some more

You are probably correct but if it were me, just as soon as I declared that I have absolute dominion over all I survey, I'd look in that little scope and see nuthin' but a perfectly clean, clear orb devoid of said dot. Then I'd have to come back here, if I lived, and tell everybody something different than "Period!" 'cause there ain't no such thing as "Period!".

Hence the QD mount. Also, the likelyhood of my T1 going TU is VERY small. VERY. However...if it does, QD mount and ghost-ring are there for me.

For the doubters...

The T1 is the standard by which all other MRDs should be measured. It's just that good. About the only thing that would be better would be one of the Aimpoint CCO optics (Comp M2/3/4), and then only for FOV through the optic (at the cost of weight). Eothingies have a great reticle, but are marginal reliability wise and eat batteries. They're also HUGE and heavy with a mount... not a good combo on guns that already suffer from a weight problem.

The red dot concept itself works well, but execution can be an issue. One really needs an adjustable comb to make the T1 work well on any shotgun, and it's just a bit too high for cowitness.

I have high hopes that the industry will someday come up with a small, open platform (think J-point/Docter/Triji/Fastfire) MRD that doesn't suffer from battery longevity problems, cheekweld issues, or reticle dimness. Until then, the T1 (with cheekweld issues) is pretty much the only adequate solution for putting a red-dot on a shotgun.

Correct on the cheek-weld issues. That is why the collapsible stock is needed on the M4. It makes it perfect where as soon as you shoulder it, the dot is right where it should be. Very natural

Anyone have any experience with the Burris SpeedBead?

Same as the fast fire. Do a search for "FastFire + FMD" for my less-than-stellar review.

Good to know, because i was contemplating on getting a Fast Fire since it's a little cheaper alternative to an Aimpoint, or Eotech. Isn't the T1 a little expensive? Like Eotech price range?

Expensive, yes. Worth every penny? Absolutely.

I payed $608, but they can be had for mid 500's or so if you search around.

I know that you are not EOTech fans, but here is my 590 A1 with an EOTech XPS2-0, with co-witnessed GG&G back up irons.

Well if you are going to do it, the T1 is the one to do it with.

I have one on my AR15 and love it. My batteries died in under a year on the #10 setting as I leave them on all the time also. Might have been an old battery, will see how long the next set lasts.

I'd like to have one.
I'm still new enough to all this that I still need to verbly test for pros and cons in everything. But I bet my bottom dollar there will be a good 14X scope on my 700 before there is a $500 red dot on my shotgun. LOL