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Lead required?

4K views 68 replies 33 participants last post by  High Rib 52 
#1 ·
Every year our club runs a 'Duckshooters' style shoot, a bit of afun day and our Gunclubs are open to all game shooters to try their luck.
We normally have 8 stands, 3 traps a stand, but I was hoping to put on 1 (non scoring) stand of a 70/80 meter springer and a 50 meter/yard crosser.
My question to the techno buffs, finally, is what lead is required (standard target off Promatic Falcon/Ranger)to break that target. I'd like to give the punters some idea of required lead, just a fun stand.
Thanks in advance!!
 
#3 ·
Not an expert on lead but here's my estimate.

50 meters is about 165 ft. At 1200 fps the load gets there in .1375 seconds. A 45 mph target travels about 73 fps. So for the 50 meter crosser you would need about 10 ft of lead. I would say that's also a little more than twice the lead you need on skeet station 4.

Hope that helps.
Tim
 
#5 ·
Texas Tiger 95 said:
Not an expert on lead but here's my estimate.

50 meters is about 165 ft. At 1200 fps the load gets there in .1375 seconds. A 45 mph target travels about 73 fps. So for the 50 meter crosser you would need about 10 ft of lead. I would say that's also a little more than twice the lead you need on skeet station 4.

Hope that helps.
Tim
Except both the target and the shot do not maintain those speeds in a constant state
 
#7 ·
There's no way to explain it to most hunters. They cannot comprehend what 4 or 8 or 12 feet of lead looks like. Hell, it's hard for ME to tell the lead in feet. You have to shoot it until you break it, then break it over and over several times until that lead picture burns into the memory. Forget feet of lead. It is meaningless to most hunters. Just stand behind them and tell them more, more, more, until it breaks.

Best way I know of is to SHOW it to them. Take two clays, walk out to the distance it will be shot, put one clay on something stationary, like a limb, and hold the other the distance away from it that the lead is, and tell them to look at the distance. Their mouths will usually drop open in disbelief. Even better is to make sure their gun is unloaded before you go out, then tell them to mount the gun on the clay you're not holding, and look at the lead over the barrel.

WMD
 
#8 ·
oneounceload said:
Texas Tiger 95 said:
Not an expert on lead but here's my estimate.

50 meters is about 165 ft. At 1200 fps the load gets there in .1375 seconds. A 45 mph target travels about 73 fps. So for the 50 meter crosser you would need about 10 ft of lead. I would say that's also a little more than twice the lead you need on skeet station 4.

Hope that helps.
Tim
Except both the target and the shot do not maintain those speeds in a constant state
Good point. If the shot speed is reduced by half (600 fps) at 50 meters (average speed of 900 fps) and the target speed is constant the lead would be 13 ft. Since the shot pattern is 30 to 40 inches wide and most shooters can't judge distance that accurately anyway I would say 11 to 12 is a good estimate.
 
#10 ·
THANKS!!!!
It's not really a technical situation, but one just to give them some idea when they get to the stand. I'm sure few will be broken but it's just some fun for them plus gives the 'experts' something to have a go at. Probably a small prize for anyone who breaks them all.
Appreciate all your feedback though.
Like the two targets idea, maybe set 2 up 12/14 foot apart and see how it goes!!
 
#15 ·
Just a couple of shortcuts to get pretty close:

-- To convert mph to fps, just add 50%. 40 mph = 60 fps (I know, it's actually 58.7).

-- Use 1000 fps as a reasonable approximation of average shot velocity at normal SC distances. Then you can take distance in feet and slide decimal point 3 places left for TOF.

So for a 50 mph direct crosser at 150 ft:
Target speed: 75 fps
TOF: 0.15 sec
Lead: 0.15 sec x 75 fps = 11 ft
 
#16 ·
Madds,

Answer #1:
In ballistic terms the TOF of a 7 1/2 1200 fps shell at 50 meters is about 0.22 seconds, so if the clay speed is for example 30 m/s (or about 110 Km/h or 70 mph) the lead needed is 0.22x30 m/s = 6.6 meters or 22 feet.
If the speed of the target is 20 m/s (or 72 Km/h or 50 mph) the lead will be 0.22x20 = 4.4 m or 15 feet.
With this information you are not so operative because the perception of 4 meters for a shooter is 3 for another, and if you are not skilled in judging distances it will be of scarce use.
So let's go to

Answer #2:

If you know the Pete Blakeley's Unit Method you will need to apply 6 unit of lead to the 50 meters full crosser.
If you did not have had yet a lesson with Pete, or you didn't read his book or seen his dvd, and you don't know how to apply his method this info also will be not operative for you.
So let's go to

Answer #3

If you go to this post
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=95&t=402180

you will find a practical method to VISUALIZE THE LEAD NEEDED, directely on the field and in a very consistent and repeatable way, every time you like it, because all you need is your hand, and I hope you will always have it with you :lol: .
In particular 6 U.L. equals to the distance between the extreme of the knuckles of your index and little finger with your left hand (or right hand if you are lefty) completely outstretched, in the same position you use when shooting.

Let me know, if you will try it at your Duckshooters style shoot, if this system has been in some way useful to you and Good luck with your shooting :D
 
#20 ·
4.6738254952543864 units - give or take a smidgen.
Now thats Funny! :lol: :lol: :lol:
A beginner will be all over the place with gun speeds, leads, move and mount etc.
If they have a fast gun speed tell them 4-5 feet If they are slower or like to "check" (stop their gun) tell them 10 feet.
If they are still behind it tell them a school bus or a canoe and see what happens. :p
Stand behind them then tell them how much more or less to move when they shoot.
Good luck
 
#21 ·
A while back I did a clinic in Dallas (RIP Backwoods) and had 6 guys in a line hold their fore fingers exactly a foot apart. They could not see each others hands. I went down the line with a measure. The variation was HUGE. I got 9 to 19 inches, and they all swore they were dead on a foot apart.

So, there is accuracy and precision. Telling someone the lead is 13.1 feet is very precise, but it is not necessarily accurate. Your perception of lead is different to mine, neither may be exactly right.

Calibration is needed when someone tells you a lead in feet, calibrate what THEY think a foot looks like, are they a 9 inch or 19inch person?

BTW, I think you will have some teed off duck hunters at those distances, :( they will say 'that is an unethical shot, I would never take it' You can test/educate them just as well much closer.

Let us know how it goes

Roger
 
#23 ·
Roger Gascoigne said:
So, there is accuracy and precision. Telling someone the lead is 13.1 feet is very precise, but it is not necessarily accurate. Your perception of lead is different to mine, neither may be exactly right.

Calibration is needed when someone tells you a lead in feet, calibrate what THEY think a foot looks like, are they a 9 inch or 19inch person?
Roger, I disagree, sort of.

A ballistics expert can calculate the actual lead accurately and precisely. Telling someone the lead is "13.1" (if the math is correct) is accurate and precise. It is determined by how long and far the shot and target travel. This has nothing to do with anyone's perception of lead.

Converting actual lead into perceived lead is where the interpretation begins.

Have fun,
Tim
 
#26 ·
Roger---Good post.

I suggest that there is internal consistency and external consistency, as there in lies the rub.

A shooter who misjudges what a "foot" looks like may use htat perception to shoot quite well, even if his "foot" is not 12 inches measured with a ruler.

The difficulty comes when he tells a shooter whose personally perceived foot (ppf) is vastly different how to shoot a target.

There is an old Organizational Development text called "Crazy Talk; Stupid Talk" that is based entirely on trying to communicate when the common words have different meaning to the parties of the conversation. This is why it is so confusing to try to tell a shooter what the specific lead is on any target.

Cheers--
 
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