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Release trigger sticker.

6K views 68 replies 20 participants last post by  maltzahn 
#1 ·
My release trigger sticker wore off after many years of use. Do I need to have one on for shooting registered ATA events? And where can I get a new one?
 
#29 ·
drsfmd said:
... now stop grasping at straws...
You keep making statements like this, but you are the one grasping at straws and being foolish.

drsfmd said:
If the gun doesn't go off, we're taught to hold, and continue to hold the trigger until the ref has checked that the misfire wasn't a shooter error, safety, barrel selector, flinch, etc. It's a much more likely scenario than you think.
I'm calling BS on this one. This is especially unlikely for Skeet shooters. Because Skeet shooters shoot at true pairs regularly and, at least most Skeet shooters I know, load for both houses even on the single targets, it stands to reason that they are more prone to letting go of the trigger immediately after pulling it. It is an unconscious move. The shooter wouldn't be able to stop themselves.

I've shot all the disciplines. I've worked with several instructors and never once have I heard that you should hold the trigger back until another person looks at it. However, just for argument's sake, let's say that this is standard teaching. What is the reasoning for holding the trigger back? How does that help in a FTF situation?
 
#30 ·
As much as I like to pick on drsfmd I have to side with him on being instructed to hold the trigger back on a misfire in skeet so that the Ref can check. I was always told the same thing as well. Below is directly from the NSSA rule book
"8. Malfunction on Singles or First Shot Doubles
To establish that a malfunction has occurred the shooter
must not open the gun or touch the safety before the
referee's inspection.
a. If the shooter is holding the trigger pulled, the referee,
after seeing that the gun is pointed in a safe direction,
will place his/her finger over the shooter's and apply
normal pressure.
b. If the shooter has released the trigger, the referee,
after seeing that the gun is pointed in a safe direc-37
III-D-8-b
tion, will exercise extreme caution not to jiggle or
attempt to further close the action and will apply
normal pressure to the trigger.
c. The target shall be scored lost if the gun fires or is
opened before the referee's inspection. A malfunction will be ruled if it does not fire and the referee's
examination for ammunition, safety, barrel selection,
etcetera, establishes that the shooter had fulfilled
required responsibilities.
d. For a gun modified with a release trigger, the referee
will not require the shooter to pull and then release"

BUT and here is the Important part The shooter will continue to point the gun in a safe downrange direction until the refs inspection. Failure to do so or sweeping the field will get you removed.

I shoot double releases and no body handles my gun without my permission and without being informed that the triggers are release. I don't see the need for stickers nor do I feel that releases are any more dangerous than pull. I cannot think of a single situation where a release trigger can be fired without pulling it first so the pull would already have fired as well.

The one fly in the ointment is opening the gun after the trigger has been set without releasing the trigger and this is one thing that I practice regularly with snap caps just to make sure that I am up to speed when it happens in the middle of a shoot. Stickers don't help that either.

--- Chip King ---
 
#31 ·
So, even if a skeet shooter took my trap gun by mistake to a skeet field and it wouldn't fire when he pulled the trigger, and he managed to hold the trigger back, he must hold the trigger back until the referee also holds the trigger back and neither is to let go until the gun is pointed in a safe direction.

Now, I am a firm believer that most accidents are the result of a series of things that must go wrong before the plane hits the mountain. However, I also believe that you can't prevent make things truly foolproof.

In the example set forth, here is what would have to happen:

1. The trap gun would have to appear to be a gun suitable for skeet; two barrels, flush chokes, moderate comb height.

2. Mr. Inattentive would have to own a very similar gun.

3. He would have to take it to the field and load it remaining unaware that it was not his gun.

4. He would try to shoot the first target of a pair and get a FTF on the first target.

5. He would have to have the mental awareness and physical ability to hold the trigger back, dismount the gun and point it in a safe direction in anticipation of the referee placing his finger over his.

6. Instead of waiting for the referee to do this, he, for some reason sweeps the gun in the direction of another person and then for some reason lets go of the trigger which he was able to hold back during the shot.

7. He shoots and kills the poor ******* that had the bad luck of squading with this moron.

The assumption is that all of this could have been prevented by having a sticker on the gun.

Personally, if all that happened there is only one outcome I would be interested in. That would be that the poor ******* who got killed left a cute and wealthy widow.
 
#32 ·
Thanks for the input Chip King, but nothing in what you posted instructs a shooter to hold the trigger back in the event of a FTF. It does give clear rules on what the referee is to do if the trigger is held back or if it has been released.
 
#33 ·
Jim, you asked for a step-by-step description of how an accident could occur when a shooter unknowingly picks up a gun with a release trigger - here you are:

Registered trap shoot at Peoria Skeet & Trap a couple of years ago - my squad came off the field after our last trap and put our guns in the rack. The squad following us was at the gun rack getting getting drinks, shells, etc. While my squad was gathering up our gear and chatting, the following squad grabbed their guns and took the field. When #2 shooter called for his first bird his shot seemed oddly delayed. We stopped to look and he was peering at his gun as if he was puzzled. We watched as he called for his second bird and his gun did not fire until he began to lower it and turn to his right. Fortunately, he had only turned slightly. He thought his gun was malfunctioning until he realized he had picked up my squad-mate's gun that was the same make and model as his, but with a release trigger. We all had a big Hee-Haaw at his expense. But the owner of the gun with release triggers did remark that he was going to put a release sticker on it.

I've never shot release triggers and doubt that I ever will. I know many people who do shoot them and they don't bother me. I do own and have shot competition rifles, pistols and shotguns with double set, single set and VERY light pull triggers and I will say that any "non-standard" trigger ("standard" being a pull trigger requiring at least several pounds of pull) creates an increased risk of accidents in the hands of someone unaware or unfamiliar with its special characteristics. A release sticker is a prudent way to mitigate that risk.

And, just for the record, I have shot the trap house with a pull trigger - twice- after changing from a gun having a trigger with a fairly heavy pull and a fair amount of take-up to a gun with a lighter pull and no take-up.
 
#34 ·
Tal, your story proves my point. Even in the case where you have some one so inattentive and unaware that they manage to actually get through a second shot without catching on they have a different gun, the gun still discharged down range.

For an accident to have happened, the shooter would have had to continue to lower and turn the gun and actually point it at people and then let go the trigger.

I submit that if a guy has his head so far up his butt that he does all of this, he probably would have missed the sticker in the first place.
 
#35 ·
"For an accident to have happened, the shooter would have had to continue to lower and turn the gun and actually point it at people and then let go the trigger."
Yep, you are exactly right. Not highly probable, but certainly possible and foreseeable.

"I submit that if a guy has his head so far up his butt that he does all of this, he probably would have missed the sticker in the first place."
I certainly hope you never find yourself in the position of being held responsible for a highly improbable, yet foreseeable accident. But, if it should happen, let me know how that approach works out for you.
 
#36 ·
Tal/IL,
Thank you for that example. It is a very interesting example of how something can go wrong. I've seen guys grab the wrong gun and not realize until they went to load the first shell. I could even understand a guy picking up the wrong gun and shooting the first shot only to discover the release. Getting to the second shot is very unlikely. The situation you describe however, is not just improbable, it's highly unlikely. Maybe even 1 in 10,000,000. Still, it happened.

I think this subject has run its course. The release trigger is no more dangerous than a pull trigger. No one has come up with a single example that would show otherwise. The danger shown in Tal/IL's example only became dangerous because the man in question started to turn before he was sure of the condition of his gun.
 
#39 ·
drsfmd said:
Rastoff said:
The release trigger is no more dangerous than a pull trigger.
Nonsense. You've been given examples, you just choose to discount them.
It's not nonsense. There has only been one example given and the trigger in question wasn't any more dangerous than any other trigger.

You, on the other hand, have failed to site even one example. Nor have you given us any reasonable discussion as to why you think they are more dangerous. Yet, you are the first to say that they are dangerous.

What do you think of mudpack's statement? It is a very good question.
 
#40 ·
The FTF rule not only eliminated the need for a shooter to keep his finger on the trigger, it requires him to immediately open the gun in the event of a FTF. The puller/scorer no longer inspects the gun, so he's in no danger.
The skeet and sporting clays rules still require that the shooter keep his finger on the trigger ( if it's a pull trigger) and the action closed until the trapper has inspected the gun. That is an entirely different situation and it makes sense that everyone knows when a gun has a release trigger.
For trap it is entirely unecessary.
Are release triggers more likely to cause an accidental discharge? Of course. It's happened to
all of us. Does that make it dangerous. Only to the trap house, which is concrete. A little paint
might be rubbed off. What a tragedy!
 
#41 ·
Sticking just with trap the small club I belonged to had 2 fields and the trap houses have been dusted 5 times (all by Pull triggers). I did one of them with my (new to me) Ljutic on my second shot. Got set, start to take up slack, BANG - DAMN :oops: , note to self Ljutic trigger has no slack. It's also amazing how many guys shoot the low house windows from station 8 in Skeet and very few are using releases. I never shot with anybody shooting releases in sporting clays so I am making an assumption that all the screwups there were pull triggers as well. So tell me again what makes the release more dangerous.

Shooters are dangerous and sometimes do dumb things and either trigger will allow them to.

--- Chip King ---
 
#44 ·
drsfmd said:
In better than 3/4 of a million rounds I've fired, I've never seen a skeet shooter shoot the low house (or high house) window.
I've never seen anyone run 200 straight. Obviously it isn't possible.
I've never seen a paramedic save anyone using CPR. Must not be possible.
I've never seen the Yankees win the World Series. That must be impossible too.

So many things I haven't seen. It's a wonder anything has ever been accomplished. :roll:

Give us a break. Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Come into reality with the rest of us. You can't think of a single real reason that release triggers are less safe than a pull.
 
#45 ·
Rastoff said:
Give us a break. Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Come into reality with the rest of us. You can't think of a single real reason that release triggers are less safe than a pull.
I didn't say it's never happened. He suggested it was a frequent occurance.

You've even got other release shooters in this thread acknowledging that ADs are more common with release triggers, but you won't let it go...
 
#46 ·
Well, evidently in that release triggers are soooo dangerous, people who shoot release triggers must be vastly more superior in their gun handling to pull trigger shooters because so far, no release shooter has ever shot anyone yet pull trigger shooters are scared to death that one of their pull triggers buddies will be such a moron that they make pick up a release gun and somehow mange to shoot some one.

Got it.
 
#47 ·
I could see this being a problem,I was at an ATA shoot over the weekend were another guy on my squad grabbed another shooters gun,the two guns were nearly identical,luckily the guy who`s gun was taken by mistake noticed it right away, but what if he did not notice? and one was a release trigger and the other was not,proper safety procedures being noticed it should not have been a problem but if somebody has their head up their rear end,hummm who knows what could have happened?
 
#49 ·
Nothing would happen, the person would have the gun go off in the air toward the trap. No body but an idiot would point a gun anywhere near a person, soooooo lets get a better subject to disscuss we are starting to sound like Aunt Bee on Andy Taylor. :wink:
DDF

At our trap club the house's have been shot at least 6 times all by pull trigger people :shock: we better not let them shoot anymore unless they have a release?? :lol:
 
#51 ·
SCHUBS said:
Take a pill,geez nobody is talking about banning release triggers.
That's where you're wrong. People who live on the myths want exactly that. Clubs run by people like drsfmd who are afraid of what they don't like or understand, want to ban them.
 
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