I have the same problems with the old 1-piece 12 ga. hulls which is why I don't mess with those hulls very much. My suspicion is that the component stack is too tall for the hull and that the wad is being compressed by the crimping operation. It puts pressure on the crimp afterward and opens it.

You may be able to verify this if you load a shell using a spent primer then carefully slicing a strip of the hull away the length of the hull so you can inspect the compression section of the hull to see if it has been compressed at all.

 

Give us the details... approximate age of the hulls (and how they were stored - hot, cold, humid, etc), powder type and amount, wad, amount of shot. It could be that you simply have a recipe that doesn't fit well in the hull.

I'm currently loading some 12-ga Peters blue hulls that have sat unloaded for at least 30 years before I liberated them at an estate sale. They perform just like the current Remington hulls.

 

The old AA CF hulls weren't bad about the crimps popping, unless you had a receipe that didn't fit well in the case.

The fact that you aren't using very much wad pressure is great, except that doesn't insure there is not some pressure being applied to the wad upon crimping.

If the components don't leave at least 3/8 inch clearance at the end of the hull before the crimp is applied, (at the original crimp line), then the hull is too full, and your receipe is one of those that doesn't fit correctly.

List your full component data here and maybe we can guide you to a better fit. Probably a wad change will fix that problem, if in fact the cases are too full, which is almost a given with the problem you are having.

DLM

 

Give us the details... approximate age of the hulls (and how they were stored - hot, cold, humid, etc), powder type and amount, wad, amount of shot. It could be that you simply have a recipe that doesn't fit well in the hull.

For my part, I'm not really sure of the age of the hulls I have. I got them from a local gun club that had used AA shells for their youth program (both reds and silvers). I would think that they were produced near the end of the production of that style hull (whenever that was). They were stored in the clubs finished basement in plastic tubs. The area isn't directly heated but it's the mechanicals room and never freezes or gets too humid.

The data I use for my 1 1/8 load comes from the new Alliant manual: 17 grains of Clay Dot, a WW 209 primer and a Figure 8 wad. The Fig 8 wad is actually about 1/16 inch shorter than the WAA12 wad used in the factory shells (I found a dud among the empty hulls and opened it).

The data for the 1 ounce load is from the Clays data in the Hodgdon manual and uses the same powder charge and primer under a TGT-12 wad. The TGT-12 is about 1/16 inch longer than the WAA12-SL wad and considerably longer than DRM's WAA12-SL replacement (which gives very dished crimps and crushed crimp shoulders with this data).

 

Wobbly1,

Nothing wrong with the powder charges, except they are a tad light. 17.3 Clays or Clay Dot should give you 1180 FPS on the 1 oz, load, and 1145 FPS on the 1-1/8 oz load.

The Figure 8 style wads are probably the cause of your crimps popping. I personally have had problems with them in AA cases, and have gone to other wads. In Remington cases, they should be fine.

I recommend to you that for AA cases, use the Down Range DRA series wads. The DRA-12 Pink for 1 oz. loads and the DRA-12 White for 1-1/8 oz. loads. These wads are clones of the Winchester wads, except they are a tad shorter and fit the AA cases and standard load receipe's quite well.

Give these wads a try and I think you will be very happy with the results.

DLM

 

Thanks for the tips, I"ll give it a better look next time I load a few shells. I'm using 15gr Unique, with the old style AA20 wads, and 7/8oz shot. I'm experimenting with a universal charge bar, so I'll try and dial back the shot a bit and see what that does for me. Thanks for all the ideas, everyone is a wealth of knowledge, as usual!

- Craig

 

CraigD,
Be sure that the WAA-20 wads are in fact the older style, and are from stock 5 years or more old.

Winchester changed that wad several years ago and made it a bit taller, to accommodate their use in factory loadings with their ball powder. It no longer will fit in receipes calling for standard 20 ga. powders used by most reloaders, including Unique and Universal. It does however work well with 3/4 oz. loads.

Bottom line is that if you are using the current version of the WAA-20 wad, It's not going to fit correctly, (too tall), in receipes using Unique or Universal

For AA HS 20 ga. cases, the DRV-20 Versalite wad from Down Range is the best wad available today.

For Remington cases, I prefer the Orange Duster, although the DRV-20 will work in them also.

DLM

 

...I recommend to you that for AA cases, use the Down Range DRA series wads. The DRA-12 Pink for 1 oz. loads and the DRA-12 White for 1-1/8 oz. loads. These wads are clones of the Winchester wads, except they are a tad shorter and fit the AA cases and standard load receipe's quite well.

The DRA wads are the ones I was referring to when I wrote...

...The data for the 1 ounce load is from the Clays data in the Hodgdon manual and uses the same powder charge and primer under a TGT-12 wad. The TGT-12 is about 1/16 inch longer than the WAA12-SL wad and considerably longer than DRM's WAA12-SL replacement (which gives very dished crimps and crushed crimp shoulders with this data).

Sitting at the computer I didn't have the DR number for the pink wad, but I've tried them more than once and they are simply too short; I end up with badly dished crimps and crushed shoulders if I set the final crimp to produce a .050" depth of shoulder.

I've got several of Kevin's sample bags of the DRA wads. DR wads aren't sold in my area...closest retail dealer is 2.5 hours away so travel or shipping makes them more costly than Rems or CB. I'll play with them again, though, to see if I can make them work. Thanks!

On Edit:
I chose several of the boxes of old AAs I have reloaded based on number of reloads and looked at the crimps. I noticed that the once-fired hulls all held their crimps well; the majority of those with 2 reloads had relaxed about 50% and, of those that had been reloaded 4 times, about 50% had relaxed so that the shoulders were about gone. I figure I'll (1) re-crimp them relaxed ones in a single stage press the day I'm going to shoot them and (2) chuck the hulls after the third reload.

 

Wobbly1,

Can't imagine your problem with the DRA wads, unless you are trying to use them for 7/8 oz. or 3/4 oz. loads. That is not what they were intended for.

I regularly load AA HS cases with 17.3 grs. Clays or Promo, and the DRA-12 Pink wad with 1 oz. of shot, and have no trouble of any kind.

Of you are seating them with a lot of wad pressure, then there might be a problem, but if seated with just enough wad pressure to just bump the gauge, (10 lbs. or less), There shouldn't be any problems at all.

Everyone I know of who uses that wad raves about it so I know others do well with it also.

DLM

 

Wobbly1,

Can't imagine your problem with the DRA wads, unless you are trying to use them for 7/8 oz. or 3/4 oz. loads. That is not what they were intended for.

Nope...using them for 1 oz. (or whatever the 1 oz. bushing in my PW drops).

I regularly load AA HS cases with 17.3 grs. Clays or Promo, and the DRA-12 Pink wad with 1 oz. of shot, and have no trouble of any kind.

I'm not loading HS cases...I'm loading the old, original 1 piece thin-walled AA hulls. I can use Kevin's wads in the new cases. In fact, I can load component sets that look fine in HS cases but produce awful shells in the old, original 1-piece. I cannot switch between loading HS hulls and loading 1-piece hulls without making some serious changes to everything having to do with crimping.

Of you are seating them with a lot of wad pressure, then there might be a problem, but if seated with just enough wad pressure to just bump the gauge, (10 lbs. or less), There shouldn't be any problems at all.

A PW doesn't have a gauge but I have my wad ram set high enough that it pushes the wad in to where the ends of the petals are 3/8" from the end of the hull. If I remove the hull from the loader at that station I can push the wad down about another 1/16" until it contacts the powder. The shot and the crimp finish seating the wad.

 

OK, I surrender. If you are loading the old AA CF cases, then the DRA wad might be a tad short.

In Remington Cases and AA CF cases, I was using the Green Duster for 1 oz. loads, but now have switched to the Down Range XL-1.

If these don't work for you, then I don't know what to tell you.

DLM

 

OK, I surrender. If you are loading the old AA CF cases, then the DRA wad might be a tad short.

In Remington Cases and AA CF cases, I was using the Green Duster for 1 oz. loads, but now have switched to the Down Range XL-1.

If these don't work for you, then I don't know what to tell you.

DLM

Surly that small difference between the HS and CF hull is within the adjustment range of a super-dooper P/W press. The shorter DRA wad should not be an issue in the CF hull. It is a piece of cake on my press!

 

Thanks for the tips, I"ll give it a better look next time I load a few shells. I'm using 15gr Unique, with the old style AA20 wads, and 7/8oz shot. I'm experimenting with a universal charge bar, so I'll try and dial back the shot a bit and see what that does for me. Thanks for all the ideas, everyone is a wealth of knowledge, as usual!

- Craig

I agree with your dialing back the amount of shot. If you still have the old MEC bar, find out what it is dropping and set the UCB to that as a starting point. The MEC bar tends to drop light because it is designed for chilled shot.

But then it may really be that the plastic as deteriorated.