I'm looking at buying an older shotgun. I intend to shoot it, preferably with modern ammo I can source at Walmart or Rural King. I will have the gun checked by a gunsmith to insure it is mechanically sound. It will have wrought steel barrels, not Damascus, twist steel, etc. This shotgun will be a field grade, not a highly collectible specimen. I'm looking at a 20 ga LC Smith with "armor" steel barrels and 2 1/2 chambers made in 1918. I'm entertaining the idea of having the chambers reamed to 2 3/4, and maybe extending the forcing cones. There is a lot of discussion about this, both here and other sites, that discuss this, and the use of lite loads. Some advocate reloading to light specs. Bottom line, I would like to shoot 2 3/4 shells rated at 1200 fps. This is what's commonly available around here. Is this possible? If not, I'll re-vector and go to Plan B.
rickfischer51
Modern Loads in Old Shotguns
1 reading
Not a great idea to have 2.5 inch chambers reamed out so as to use 2.75 inch shells. Especially in a a 107 year old gun. Go to plan B.
I would advise rethinking your plan. I am a fan of the American sidelock, I love the LC Smith guns. I would look for a newer specimen with 2 3/4" chambers from the factory.
Steel got better over the decades, not to mention the 1918 specimen was originally designed for much lower pressure. Those are the two things that would give me pause.
Do not overlook the condition of the stock, some are weakened from over oiling and need some beefing up with bedding compound to be put right. Restocking a sidelock LC Smith is a costly proposition, beefing up with bedding compound can be an insurance policy.
Steel got better over the decades, not to mention the 1918 specimen was originally designed for much lower pressure. Those are the two things that would give me pause.
Do not overlook the condition of the stock, some are weakened from over oiling and need some beefing up with bedding compound to be put right. Restocking a sidelock LC Smith is a costly proposition, beefing up with bedding compound can be an insurance policy.
What is Plan B?
Regardless, Plan C could be a more modern SxS.
Or, an english boxlock, perhaps....sold through a reputable outfit that pre-vets the guns a bit.
Woodcock Hill is one to consider...there are others.
Decide if you wish to spend your cash up front or spend it putting a marginal gun in shape.
Regardless, Plan C could be a more modern SxS.
Or, an english boxlock, perhaps....sold through a reputable outfit that pre-vets the guns a bit.
Woodcock Hill is one to consider...there are others.
Decide if you wish to spend your cash up front or spend it putting a marginal gun in shape.
So far you are all telling me what I pretty much thought. Plan B is Hunter Fulton or a Lefever from the 30's or 40's with 2 3/4" chambers. Plan C is a CZ Bobwhite with 3 inch chambers that I can shoot the crap out of. But the Elsie beckons me. It would be worth $25 for a box of 2 1/2 in shells.
And THERE'S your option: RST's 2 1/2" shells go for $20 - $23 a box depending on which shell and whether you buy a box or a flat.
Even so; I would go for a slightly more modern gun with 2 3/4" chambers.
Even so; I would go for a slightly more modern gun with 2 3/4" chambers.
Which begs another question. What is a lite load? Some of the 2 1/2 inchers I'm finding on line are rated at 1275 fps. That seems counter intuitive. RST has them at 1100 fps.
Shooting a modern off the shelf load in a 100 year old gun of questionable condition is not smart. Having that old gun butchered to do so is just asking for trouble. Even if you plan on shooting the low power 2.5" RSTs in that old LC you're looking at, you need to make sure it locks up tight and on face, the wood can handle being shot, and the barrels are in good shape.
The better option, both safety and cost wise if you want a shooter is to buy something more modern but still "antique" that gives you the old school gun with the ability to shoot off the shelf ammo. Once again though, condition is key.
The better option, both safety and cost wise if you want a shooter is to buy something more modern but still "antique" that gives you the old school gun with the ability to shoot off the shelf ammo. Once again though, condition is key.
The best light loads designed for older shotguns...are listed as such.đź’ˇ
Velocity along with weight and perhaps, more...enters.
Folks take old gun loads crafted to protect steel and wood seriously and, the shells are unlikely to be at Rural King.
Consider Plan C or D......the best days of Elsies were not in the decades you note, imo.
There is a lot of puffery about old American factory guns.
I have a rather plain 16 gauge 1916 AH Fox named Mary...simply a good gun deserving of light duty doing what she was designed for regarding birds....nothing more and, hopefully, nothing less.
Respect is deserved for more than game birds, imo.
Velocity along with weight and perhaps, more...enters.
Folks take old gun loads crafted to protect steel and wood seriously and, the shells are unlikely to be at Rural King.
Consider Plan C or D......the best days of Elsies were not in the decades you note, imo.
There is a lot of puffery about old American factory guns.
I have a rather plain 16 gauge 1916 AH Fox named Mary...simply a good gun deserving of light duty doing what she was designed for regarding birds....nothing more and, hopefully, nothing less.
Respect is deserved for more than game birds, imo.
This hobby of shooting very old shotguns is rewarding, but I would not embark on it unless I had a personal relationship with a double-gun shop with a top tier gunsmith. Especially an LC Smith.
Light weight, durable, affordable. Pick any two*.
The hobby involves taking some responsibility for keeping a piece of history alive through the employment of specialized craft gunsmiths, or the willingness to hang a couple thousand dollars of inoperable old shotgun on the wall.|
To me, part of that hobby is not being afraid to load the shells the gun needs. Roll crimping 2 1/12" shells is fun and very easy. You make exactly what you want, and if a box of shells takes half an hour to load, who cares?
Consider Plan C: Take a look at new Italian side by sides like the FAIR or Upland Gun's imports. Become the owner of a shogun that someone will be asking about in 100 years.
*This rule (light weight, durable, affordable... you only get two) is broken by the Ithaca Model 37 pump gun. The exception that proves the rule.
Light weight, durable, affordable. Pick any two*.
The hobby involves taking some responsibility for keeping a piece of history alive through the employment of specialized craft gunsmiths, or the willingness to hang a couple thousand dollars of inoperable old shotgun on the wall.|
To me, part of that hobby is not being afraid to load the shells the gun needs. Roll crimping 2 1/12" shells is fun and very easy. You make exactly what you want, and if a box of shells takes half an hour to load, who cares?
Consider Plan C: Take a look at new Italian side by sides like the FAIR or Upland Gun's imports. Become the owner of a shogun that someone will be asking about in 100 years.
*This rule (light weight, durable, affordable... you only get two) is broken by the Ithaca Model 37 pump gun. The exception that proves the rule.
Forget the stock cracking L.C. Smith and get a late Savage-era Fox-Sterlingworth already chambered for 2 3/4-inch shells.
I have never seen any pressure data for old 20-gauge shells, but the heaviest 12-gauge shells our North American ammunition companies offered from the late 1890s until after WW-I were 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powder (such as Infallible or Ballistite) pushing 1 1/4-ounces of shot.
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These loads were higher pressure than SAAMI specs which came into effect during the mid-1920s.
When Western Cartridge Co. introduced the progressive burning smokeless powder, high velocity, 12-gauge load (Super-X) in 1922, they pushed that 1 1/4-ounces of shot out much faster than the old bulk or dense smokeless powders but at lower pressures. More damage done to old guns through the recoil forces from the higher velocities than pressure issues. In the 20-gauge the progressive burning smokeless powders offered higher velocity and an increase in payload to one ounce. Western put their Super-X 20-gauge in a 2 3/4-inch shell. Remington and Peters followed with their Heavy Duck load and High Velocity in a 2 3/4-inch 20-gauge shell. Winchester however with a load of their 20-gauge Model 12 20-gauges with 2 1/2-inch chambers in sportsmen's hands offered the 1-ounce high velocity loads in both 2 1/2- and 2 3/4-inch shells.
Prior to that time the heaviest 20-gauge loads offered were 2 1/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 18-grains of dense smokeless powder (such as Infallible or Ballistite) pushing 7/8-ounce of shot in the 2 1/2-inch shell. In the 2 3/4-inch or longer 20-gauge shells the ammo companies offered slightly hotter loads of 2 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 20-grains of dense smokeless powder (such as Infallible or Ballistite) pushing the same 7/8-ounce of shot.
I have never seen any pressure data for old 20-gauge shells, but the heaviest 12-gauge shells our North American ammunition companies offered from the late 1890s until after WW-I were 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powder (such as Infallible or Ballistite) pushing 1 1/4-ounces of shot.
These loads were higher pressure than SAAMI specs which came into effect during the mid-1920s.
When Western Cartridge Co. introduced the progressive burning smokeless powder, high velocity, 12-gauge load (Super-X) in 1922, they pushed that 1 1/4-ounces of shot out much faster than the old bulk or dense smokeless powders but at lower pressures. More damage done to old guns through the recoil forces from the higher velocities than pressure issues. In the 20-gauge the progressive burning smokeless powders offered higher velocity and an increase in payload to one ounce. Western put their Super-X 20-gauge in a 2 3/4-inch shell. Remington and Peters followed with their Heavy Duck load and High Velocity in a 2 3/4-inch 20-gauge shell. Winchester however with a load of their 20-gauge Model 12 20-gauges with 2 1/2-inch chambers in sportsmen's hands offered the 1-ounce high velocity loads in both 2 1/2- and 2 3/4-inch shells.
Prior to that time the heaviest 20-gauge loads offered were 2 1/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 18-grains of dense smokeless powder (such as Infallible or Ballistite) pushing 7/8-ounce of shot in the 2 1/2-inch shell. In the 2 3/4-inch or longer 20-gauge shells the ammo companies offered slightly hotter loads of 2 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 20-grains of dense smokeless powder (such as Infallible or Ballistite) pushing the same 7/8-ounce of shot.
Gentlemen,
I highly recommend using the correct size shells that any classic gun was manufactured to shoot, I never alter the gun for modern shells. I recommend RST and Classico 2 1/2" shells for L.C. Smith guns with shorter engineered chambers. If you use the correct shells in your L.C. Smith guns and clean and store them correctly, they will last for ever, our families L.C. Smith gun collection is living proof, handed down thru many generations. We do not have any cracked stocks because we do not abuse our guns. Always use the correct size shells in your Classic guns, whether they be American or Euro.
all the best,
Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith/Westley Richards Man
Special made 16 Gauge pre 1913 L.C. Smith Silver Breech double gun, in absolutely perfect condition, it has never been abused by using the wrong shells in it. We use RST 2 1/2" shells in her all the time.
I highly recommend using the correct size shells that any classic gun was manufactured to shoot, I never alter the gun for modern shells. I recommend RST and Classico 2 1/2" shells for L.C. Smith guns with shorter engineered chambers. If you use the correct shells in your L.C. Smith guns and clean and store them correctly, they will last for ever, our families L.C. Smith gun collection is living proof, handed down thru many generations. We do not have any cracked stocks because we do not abuse our guns. Always use the correct size shells in your Classic guns, whether they be American or Euro.
all the best,
Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith/Westley Richards Man
Special made 16 Gauge pre 1913 L.C. Smith Silver Breech double gun, in absolutely perfect condition, it has never been abused by using the wrong shells in it. We use RST 2 1/2" shells in her all the time.
Plan B or C or D.....To each their own but I would NOT ream out the chamber on any gun or otherwise mess with dimensions on an old classic, whether American, British, German or whatever. As many others have noted, there are newer LC Smith guns with 2-3/4 chambers. As for lighter loads, some are available in general from Gamebore, RC, RST and others. RC tend to be the most affordable and they actually publish their pressures. Unless the gun has been re-proofed by a proof house a suitable for modern loads (NOT STEEL), I would not run anything from Walmart etc through it. Forget the gun....I value my fingers and my vision. I have a number of old gun - some as old as the 1880s but most in the 1920s-1930s from England and Germany. All function perfectly with proper loads (see above) and easily kill pheasants in reasonable range. Yes, you are limited on waterfowl unless you spend upwards of $50/box for bismuth. I do not generally use these for clays except for modest outings - 25 or 30 shots for tuning up) - this will change as I can finally get into reloading lighter loads.
Bottom line, if you are set on an LC Smith, find a newr one in 2-3/4, check for proof marks and for stock and barrel condition and if possible have it checked by a KNOWLEDGABLE gunsmith before consumating teh purchae. Otherwise consider any of the really wonderful other SxSs from England, Germany, Belgium or Italy. FYI, another source for primairly German guns is Save the Fine Guns - reaonable prices on impoted older primary German guns that HAVE been checked over by a German gunsmith prior to sale.
Good luck on your quest - it really is satisfying to pull out a 100 year old gun in a field of black or camo autoloaders and proceed to bring home some birds - light, beauticul, unique and back in the field where they belong!
Below is a Charles Boswell, action from 1870s, Damascus barrrels from 1880s; 6.5 lbs, chambered in 2-3/4 and proofed in 2011 for modern light loads. Kills birds dead and pretty hard to find anything as beautiful in the field these days. Runs RC shells and some Lambro with no issues at all.
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Bottom line, if you are set on an LC Smith, find a newr one in 2-3/4, check for proof marks and for stock and barrel condition and if possible have it checked by a KNOWLEDGABLE gunsmith before consumating teh purchae. Otherwise consider any of the really wonderful other SxSs from England, Germany, Belgium or Italy. FYI, another source for primairly German guns is Save the Fine Guns - reaonable prices on impoted older primary German guns that HAVE been checked over by a German gunsmith prior to sale.
Good luck on your quest - it really is satisfying to pull out a 100 year old gun in a field of black or camo autoloaders and proceed to bring home some birds - light, beauticul, unique and back in the field where they belong!
Below is a Charles Boswell, action from 1870s, Damascus barrrels from 1880s; 6.5 lbs, chambered in 2-3/4 and proofed in 2011 for modern light loads. Kills birds dead and pretty hard to find anything as beautiful in the field these days. Runs RC shells and some Lambro with no issues at all.
re: vintage 20g pressures
c. 1900 (Period reported pressures vary significantly)
7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dram BULK Smokeless was 8000-10,000 psi.
7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. DENSE Smokeless was 11,000 - 12,500 psi.
Published Ballistic Tables by DuPont c. 1920s listed significantly higher pressures. Numbers are estimated transducer pressures
20g 7/8 oz.
2 1/4 Dr. Eq. 12,500 psi
2 1/2 Dr. Eq. 13,750 psi
c. 1900 (Period reported pressures vary significantly)
7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dram BULK Smokeless was 8000-10,000 psi.
7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. DENSE Smokeless was 11,000 - 12,500 psi.
Published Ballistic Tables by DuPont c. 1920s listed significantly higher pressures. Numbers are estimated transducer pressures
20g 7/8 oz.
2 1/4 Dr. Eq. 12,500 psi
2 1/2 Dr. Eq. 13,750 psi
I own three Nitro specials. I shoot modern spec reloads in all of them. That said...if the wood is oil soaked I'd likely refrain. The Nitro Specials are bulletproof if in good condition.
If the OP reloads he doesn't have any problem. 2 1/2" data for both fold and roll crimps is available, at many chamber pressures and velocities he may want, for whatever belief he has about an 'older' shotgun.
Apologies if I someone already posted this link- if not here's the discussion on the topic of chamber lengthening from the LC Smith bCollectors Association...
FAQ / Tech Library - L.C. Smith Collectors Association, Inc. FAQ / Tech Library - L.C. Smith Collectors Association, Inc. FAQ / Tech Library - L.C. Smith Collectors Association, Inc. FAQ / Tech Library - L.C. Smith Collectors Association, Inc.
FAQ / Tech Library - L.C. Smith Collectors Association, Inc. FAQ / Tech Library - L.C. Smith Collectors Association, Inc. FAQ / Tech Library - L.C. Smith Collectors Association, Inc. FAQ / Tech Library - L.C. Smith Collectors Association, Inc.
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